Bug 247750

Summary: Include NTFS-3G 1.0 (RW driver for NTFS)
Product: [openSUSE] openSUSE 10.3 Reporter: Silviu Marin-Caea <silviu_marin-caea>
Component: OtherAssignee: Thomas Fehr <fehr>
Status: RESOLVED FIXED QA Contact: E-mail List <qa-bugs>
Severity: Enhancement    
Priority: P5 - None CC: aj, al4321, andreas.hanke, coolo, f-perret, forgotten_2DWhME0Rgc, francis, holler, jarl, jrock, snwint
Version: Alpha 1   
Target Milestone: ---   
Hardware: All   
OS: Other   
Whiteboard:
Found By: Beta-Customer Services Priority:
Business Priority: Blocker: ---
Marketing QA Status: --- IT Deployment: ---

Description Silviu Marin-Caea 2007-02-22 09:57:25 UTC
http://www.ntfs-3g.org/

This is considered stable now (1.0).

It would allow RW access to Windows NTFS volumes.  I see this as an important functionality.
Comment 1 Greg Kroah-Hartman 2007-02-23 16:29:31 UTC
Then please push the developers to get their code upstream into the main kernel tree, which will enable us to get this automatically.

Otherwise, we will not be adding this to our kernel.

Or you can create a KMP for this and add it to the build system yourself.
Comment 2 Andreas Hanke 2007-02-23 16:31:23 UTC
ntfs-3g is not a kernel driver, so this cannot be a kernel enhancement. It is a user-space driver based on FUSE.
Comment 3 Andreas Hanke 2007-02-23 17:22:05 UTC
I have built a package, available at http://software.opensuse.org/download/home:/andreas_hanke
Comment 5 Andreas Hanke 2007-03-22 21:05:29 UTC
*** Bug 256835 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 6 Alexey Eremenko 2007-03-23 15:17:10 UTC
This functionality is *extremely* important nowadays, when hard disks get huge, up to 1 TB, and I have to exchange data between Windows and Linux on my PC. FAT32 doesn't scale to my demands, while the new NTFS-3G driver does !

This is not a kernel driver, so it cannot be included with the kernel.

But I want FULL integration between this driver and openSUSE 10.3, this includes:

a) inclusion of NTFS-3G in the standard openSUSE DVD.

b) Yast should be able to mount NTFS partitions, in RW mode by using
the new driver, during openSUSE installation. Yast should be fully aware of this new (userland) driver.

Today, Yast mounts Windows NTFS partition during openSUSE setup, but in
RO mode, because it uses the old NTFS (kernel) driver.

Full integration is the key !

--
-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
Comment 7 Marcus Rückert 2007-03-23 15:27:20 UTC
http://software.opensuse.org/downloads/filesystems/ is the new url.

and i would still vote for RO mounting by default.
Comment 8 Juergen Weigert 2007-03-23 15:31:10 UTC
How is our current situation wrt resizing an NTFS partition to make room for linux?
Comment 9 Alexey Eremenko 2007-03-23 15:35:41 UTC
OK, I agree with Marcus, about default mounting with RO mode, but using the new
driver, so switching to RW will be easy, OK?

on openSUSE 10.2, it was pain in the a$$... as the FUSE included with openSUSE
10.2 didn't work with NTFS-3G, so I had to recompile the driver, resolve stupid
dependencies, compile NTFS-3G manually, setting all stuff manually...

When NTFS-3G will be fully integrated into Yast, it will be perfect thing !

I had no problems with RW and RO access using the new driver, it even supports
NTFS compression in real-time and hardlinks !!!
But I agree to play it safe-default for the next year.

BTW: Should I open 2 separate bugs: one for inclusion and other for Yast ?

--
-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"
Comment 10 Juergen Weigert 2007-03-23 16:16:39 UTC
We can simply reassign this bug to the yast team, as soon as AJ approves inclusion.
Comment 11 Daniele Tombolini 2007-03-23 19:48:00 UTC
+1 for ntfs-3g and for RO/RW, RO for default but add option to yast for switching to RW in installation setup (and after installation..).
Comment 12 Forgotten User 2DWhME0Rgc 2007-03-26 15:56:24 UTC
I would vote for integrating the new driver, using it by default (instead of the older one), but only mounting ro as default.
Switching to RW should be possible from within yast, and should be made easy.
Comment 13 Alexey Eremenko 2007-04-04 16:33:24 UTC
So, let's integrate this one ! What we are waiting for...
Comment 14 Alexey Eremenko 2007-04-14 23:01:09 UTC
It's too bad that this wonderful driver wasn't included in the latest openSUSE 10.3 Alpha 3 :( :(
Comment 15 Rastislav Krupansky 2007-04-16 17:17:33 UTC
Yes, it would be great thing to integrate it.It would be next thing for new users how to make easy administration.:-)
Too many users have got a problem with writting on ntfs.
Comment 16 Silviu Marin-Caea 2007-05-04 11:06:04 UTC
From: Juergen Weigert <jw@suse.de>
  CC: mailinglist <opensuse-factory@opensuse.org>
  Date: Today 01:24:41 pm

> http://www.ntfs-3g.org/index.html
> Is this also something for 10.3?

was a candidate, did not see a decision.

It is already in 
http://software.opensuse.org/download/filesystems/
Comment 17 Christian Jäger 2007-05-05 07:54:15 UTC
The revolutionary thing about the 1.0-release of ntfs-3g is that its NTFS-_write_-support is stable!

Using it in read-only mode doesn't make any sense at all; we could stick with the in-kernel NTFS-support as well. 

Switchers from Windows desperately need NTFS-write-support; ntfs-3g delivers stable write-support, so let's have it.
Comment 18 Andreas Jaeger 2007-05-09 09:20:19 UTC
So, if we include it - what should we do?

Set up the system so that any NTFS partition is mounted automatically (like nowadays any DOS partition) read-write?
Comment 19 Magnus Boman 2007-05-09 10:22:19 UTC
My 2 cents... IF we include this driver, we need to have the auto mount AND read/write. It would be silly to include it and mount it read only.

We either trust this one or we don't.

If we do it in Factory then we will get reports about corrupted file system. After all, we don't guarantee anything with Factory and people who install it should be aware....
Comment 20 Silviu Marin-Caea 2007-05-09 11:01:44 UTC
I'm running Factory and I have a Windows installation I'm willing to trash...
Comment 21 Tim Fechtner 2007-05-09 17:46:24 UTC
I've tested it with the packages from http://software.opensuse.org/download/filesystems/ .

It is working fine, but has the following problem: When you simply change your existing /etc/fstab entry (from 'ntfs' to 'ntfs-3g') and mount it _manually_, then it will work fine. But when you want to mount it automaticly (during the boot process), then all non-ASCII files and folders will be invisible.  This is because the driver needs to know at mounting time the locale (see http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#locale for detailed information).

Solution: Set the locale (yet by yast) in the fstab (parameter 'locale=de_DE.utf8' for example). Then the driver is working fine. However I'm not shure if this is a nice solution, as not all users will use the same locale. However this issue must be adressed before including ntfs-3g for not making a step back to the functionality of the 'ntfs' driver.
Comment 22 Tim Fechtner 2007-05-09 17:47:15 UTC
PS: I had tested it with 10.2, but I asume that for 10.3 alpha this will be the same...
Comment 23 Cristian Rodríguez 2007-05-09 20:26:16 UTC
(In reply to comment #19)
> My 2 cents... IF we include this driver, we need to have the auto mount AND
> read/write. It would be silly to include it and mount it read only.

If write is considered **safe**, then include this driver, else ,we just need to wait to mature and **not** include it into the distribution, or at least not by default.


> 
> We either trust this one or we don't.

Exactly, the native kernel ntfs driver works fine in read only mode, adding yet another driver to do the same thing will be pointless.


> After all, we don't guarantee anything with Factory and people who install it
> should be aware....

people that uses factory more or less should know what they are doing..  ;)

Comment 24 Alexey Eremenko 2007-05-10 18:50:44 UTC
We definitely trust this driver.
Comment 25 Cristian Rodríguez 2007-05-10 18:59:49 UTC
(In reply to comment #24)
> We definitely trust this driver.
> 

Based in  what criteria ? evidence ? this is a qiite delicated piece of functionality, most users has dual boot systems with Windows and linux, and if offered they will want to use NTFS write support, however if it does not really work as advertised this will cause **major** pain... 
Comment 26 Rafał Miłecki 2007-05-17 17:36:02 UTC
Cristian Rod

I think we all base our opinions on outself tests and this page: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/quality.html
Comment 27 Alexey Eremenko 2007-05-21 18:58:32 UTC
"Instlux", or "openSUSE setup from Windows" will win seriously from NTFS-3G integration, because then we could setup swap-on-NTFS. read:
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=276450

It is *very* important for me to get ntfs-3g in 10.3. I don't care too much if it's used by default in RO or RW mode.

In the future we could go as far as creating Instlux that will install openSUSE on NTFS entirely.
Comment 28 Rafał Miłecki 2007-05-21 19:14:27 UTC
Is there any serious reason why openSUSE doesn't use ntfs-3g? It's stable so...?
Comment 29 Jan Karjalainen 2007-05-23 20:34:41 UTC
Yes, I'd like to know too if there is any serious reason why this would not be included.
I really need this, as it finally gives stable RW support.
Comment 30 Andreas Jaeger 2007-05-24 06:19:25 UTC
We're planning to integrate this - I have our engineers looking at what exactly needs to be done for an automatic integration.
Comment 31 Rastislav Krupansky 2007-05-24 06:28:52 UTC
Hello
And i´d give you great tool for ntfs-3g in GUI.It will help you perhaps:-)
http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1872
Mainly for new users.
Redards, Rasto
Comment 32 Steffen Winterfeldt 2007-06-12 16:52:55 UTC
FWIW I've added ntfs-3g support to the install & rescue systems. linuxrc
uses it (but yast not) if you boot with 'use.ntfs-3g=1'. Will show up
_after_ alpha5.
Comment 33 Hans-Peter Holler 2007-06-26 18:44:23 UTC
rpm -changelog -q ntfs-3g
* Mi Jun 06 2007 - bk@suse.de
- Initial version 1.516, has Obsoletes: ntfsmount-fuse

Time to close this ?

BTW: runs perfectly in my environment. Is it worth to open a new bugzilla as enhancement to use it as default ?
Comment 34 Rafał Miłecki 2007-07-04 18:45:52 UTC
So does openSUSE mount ntfs partitions using ntfs-3g by default?
Comment 35 Nicolas Dalleinne 2007-07-06 14:26:26 UTC
can it be included in SLED?
Comment 36 Andreas Jaeger 2007-07-06 15:08:34 UTC
Ad #34: Not yet.

Ad #35: This is the openSUSE bugzilla, sorry, we cannot make any promises for SLED. 
Comment 40 Thomas Fehr 2007-07-16 09:40:39 UTC
I can change YaST2 to add ntfs-3g to fstab entries for NTFS filesystems.
Should the default be read-only or read-write?
Comment 41 Silviu Marin-Caea 2007-07-16 09:45:14 UTC
Being considered stable, I vote for RW.
Comment 42 Stephan Kulow 2007-07-16 09:49:27 UTC
Yeah, it should be RW. Be prepared to go back to RO if we get data corruption reports though ;)
Comment 43 Alexey Eremenko 2007-07-16 10:00:07 UTC
>Should the default be read-only or read-write?

This is very good question discussed earlier.

There are people who want this-or-that way.

My position: The "safe" way is to make it RO by default, and easily configurable via Yast during install to convert it to RW. The "safe" way should be used for 10.3 series to make sure that integration goes slowly and we don't break things.

If all goes well, For openSUSE 11.x series, we should enable NTFS-3G RW mode by default.

I have not experienced corruption with NTFS-3G, and I use it pretty intensively. But one components still lacks in the Linux world: NTFS-scandisk-like utility, which can fix broken / uncleanly unmounted NTFS partitions.
Comment 44 Rastislav Krupansky 2007-07-16 10:19:49 UTC
I´m not a developer, but i think that is very good idea, Alexey.I agree with your opinion:-)
Regards
Comment 45 Thomas Fehr 2007-07-16 10:30:50 UTC
Changed YaST2 to use ntfs-3g in fstab and for mount into fs hierarchy.
Default will be to mount read-write.
Change will be available in alpha#6.
Comment 46 Péter Kerékfy 2007-07-18 17:33:56 UTC
And what about hotplugged ntfs partitions on usb harddisks?
Will HAL do the mount using ntfs-3g?
Comment 47 Stephan Kulow 2007-07-18 17:45:14 UTC
most likely not. But please test with alpha6 and report as bug
Comment 48 Péter Kerékfy 2007-07-21 09:39:36 UTC
Exactly which package contains the ntfs-3g driver in alpha6??

I can only find a package called ntfsprogs-fuse but it does not seem to be the latest ntfs-3g release.
Comment 49 Tim Fechtner 2007-08-09 21:45:55 UTC
@Péter: see bug 293420