Bug 263606

*** Bug 263605 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

(In reply to comment #0)
> In addition to the compact 1 CD netinstall ISO some people want due to
> their online preferences, I have strong offline preference, and I ask
> to provide a full SUSE distro (FTP tree) on 2 DVDs for 10.3. (as
> opposed to 1 DVD now)
> 

sigh .. Why you want to enlarge the distribution even more ? aint it too big already ? specially, what benefit will this have to the **mayority** of users ? 
personally I think we should go backwards, less CDs/DVD and more online. almost always people only need less than half of the contents on the DVD.

For those like you, openSUSE 10.3 will have net-install 1 CD. (the same way ArchLinux or Ubuntu goes).

I need a lot of packages available instantly. (like Debian DVD set). Since DVD and Hard Disk are both more reliable *and* faster way to get packages from, I need those to be available that way.

Personally I think that the distro is too large as it is. I would suggest that 90% of users would not install/use/understand what half the current utilities are for in the first place. There are thousands of them currently.

The latest default set of application in 10.2 is a nice mix, whilst still providing the ability to customize.

Even looking at the number of similar application that are visible on menus is disconcerting to new users - who don't expect to have more than one application for its intended use.

Adding a 2 DVD and consequently increasing the CD numbers would put more pressure on dependency links which are difficult to manage at the current time.

Personally I don't think we need to add any more function applications to the distro - or perhaps we should speak of it as a 'compilation' of applications.

I am not trying to reject the authors wish, however I think we need to look at the distro or compilation as being technically maintainable well into the future and adding more complexity to current dependency links would be undesirable.

Again, I don't think that those applications needs all to be installed right away, just be "at hand", and speaking of dependencies, well:

1) Debian manages it. So can we.
2) Dependencies must be maintained anyways, because the FTP tree is fully supported packages for 10.2, just not in the DVD. When you include FTP repository in your Yast, the same dependency-resolution logic applies, like from any other media. So it doesn't add any extra complexity over what we have now.
3) Decisions on what must be included in the 2 DVDs are easier than for 1 DVD.

Currently, important packages are left off on the Internet, due to lack of space in the 1 DVD.

..and as openSUSE grows, more packages are need to be added, and the currently available packages also grow in space. openSUSE 10.3 comes closer than ever to Debian Sarge 3.1 in terms of space usage & distro complexity. If we wanna continue growing, we must learn managing complexity, instead of running from it.

So, I agree that by default, not every package should be installed, not even Debian does so, but I definitely think, that main distro's purpose is to distribute packages, which means, make packages available to all users, including those with unstable internet, or no Internet at all. So those users can download once, run everywhere.

Users with online needs are addressed already, but users with offline needs are forgotten.

-- 
-Alexey Eremenko "Technologov"

(In reply to comment #5)
> Again, I don't think that those applications needs all to be installed right
> away, just be "at hand", 

If you want it at hand, create your local mirror ( man rsync)

> 
> 1) Debian manages it. So can we.

We are not debian.. !! do you ever think on quality ? have you ever noticed the amount of broken packages in selections like the debian's one ?


> 2) Dependencies must be maintained anyways, because the FTP tree is fully
> supported packages for 10.2, just not in the DVD. 

have you ever figured the waste of bandwidth this is ? just ask mirror mantainers.

> but users with offline needs are
> forgotten.

Welcome to the 21 century, where Internet exists as well modern,efficient mirroring tools that will certainly not generate the waste of resources you are suggesting.

If Debian is obsolete and always follows a "old fashioned" way to do things , does not mean we should do the same thing.


IMHO opinion we should care more about quality and less about quantity.


 

> Welcome to the 21 century, where Internet exists as well modern,efficient
> mirroring tools that will certainly not generate the waste of resources you > are suggesting.

There is more places on this planet where Internet is still luxury, than those in 21st century, with broadband. Funny is that right that parts of the world may show as better customers for CD/DVD deal that mirrors whole FTP tree, than 21st century downloaders. 

> If Debian is obsolete and always follows a "old fashioned" way to do 
> things, does not mean we should do the same thing.

Debian is not oldfashioned for some mystical reason, it has probably stronger presence in above mentioned places. Why is Ubuntu Debian based? I guess that cheap Debian from third party, with a lot of software, plus Ubuntu make good tandem for users that still pay Intrenet per hour. 

> IMHO opinion we should care more about quality and less about quantity. 

What Alexey asked is not to include more software in a distro repositories, but to provide existing set on DVD. 

Apropos majority of users. You know from Ubuntu example that 1 CD is fine. The major problem is how much cost production of additional DVD? Is it worth to talk this much about?
 

Not only that, but also mobile users have so called "unstable internet" due to their WiFi connection on the road. Think about them too ! They also need offline-capable distro.

OMG! Lets us look at the commercial reality of the distro.

Your quote "After all
"distro"'s target is to distribute software, not just keep all to
itself."

Distro is a very poor description of a Version of Linux provided and Maintained by Novell.

In the boxed version of software as a user who uses applications for productivity gains and giving everyone the ability to perform mundane and manual tasks in a quick, reliable automated fashion is the main purpose of software.

A PC is not an adults toy to poke and see what is does.

Together a PC and Open Suse Linux mission I suggest is to provide the most stable, most usable, most productive compilation of applications that are are joy to use for their intended purpose.

I would rather cut down the number of applications by half if it meant that overnight the 1,000 odd bugs logged in Bugzilla, 3,500 odd bugs in KDE Bugzilla,
(sorry about the KDE preference) were resolved and that became 10.3.

That wont happen, however there is a balance between Quality and development in respect to how much time is devoted to each.

I would like version 10.3 to provide in order

1. Stability
2. Usability
3. Technical Enhancements on existing applications.

If that meant we had to sacrifice 300 utilities or offer less of a range of the same application type I would be the happiest consumer in the world.

The Internet distributes software, or you order it on Media
Novell are certified to ISO Quality Assurance standards 9001 to produce quality products not just big ones.

Footnote: This is just one persons expression and interest in this bug proposition and was written in a spirit of healthy discussion.

I don't see how Cristian and Scott were able to misunderstand the enhancement request from Alexey so fully. They spend many words opposing some enlargement of the distro, when the request consists simply in including ALL the packages available on the FTP server (by definition they all are part of distro already) in 2 DVD ISOs. These could be offered online for torrent download, though it would be nice to have them also both in the box.

I also applaud this idea. I see it cutting down immensely the installation time, when many of the packages not-in-the-first-DVD are installed. If they are on the DVDs, then only the differential security patches from YOU would have to be downloaded, which are orders of magnitude smaller.

I second the idea of having the complete ftp tree on DVDs.

My proposal is to include all the FTP tree to DVDs, but not for downloadable ISOs (considering proplems with bandwidth an such). In my opinion this should be done for the _Retail_ version.

The download via torrent doesn't make problem to FTP servers, but I agree that guys that shell out money should get more comfort with locally available FTP tree. The price difference is not that big to justify decision not to include.

I really would like a DVD with every thing in the ftp.  As it is now I have to download the complete ftp tree and creat my own.
I support many different companies with linux and I am constantly needing a set of DVD's with every thing on the ftp download for them.
So please make an option for this that may be a purchased product.

Thanks,


 

We'll evaluate to add the full ftp tree on a seperate DVD for the retail product. 

Great! Thanks.

No, it's not enough.

The second DVD should be available for download as well.

-Alexey "Technologov"

This is a really, really bad idea ...

Waste of bandwidth, waste of mirror resources, waste waste waste..

Anyway what is there on the ftp that isn't on the DVD9 already, not much beside -debuginfo, -devel etc.

So they drop the sticker, drop the admin book, but should go and add one more DVD (DVD9 are kinda costly btw ..) to the retail box !? If this happen i scream...

You want quantity over quality the bugger off and go install Debian, period.

> The second DVD should be available for download as well.

You will provide the extra media and the mirror to host this, ok?

It was already explained a million times

If you have a usecase, its YOUR problem. Its not mine, its not from the other 98% that is not part of that usecase. Stop giving people problems taht are only yours.

And those people complaining about "ah, it would be nice, it would be nice" I doubt they really need it. They are jsut trying to waste other people's time.

Because who of you have done a custom media in 10.2? In 10.1? In previous releases? Have you done that? No, you havent, and this proves the point that you really dont need it, you are just wanting people to do your will, like you were the king.

You are not the king, with your stupid demands

(In reply to comment #17)
> No, it's not enough.

Yes, it is enough for the 98% of the people.
 
> The second DVD should be available for download as well.

No, it shouldn't. it is useless, and there is already wayyy to much more important things where to invest time and resources.

This is a complete non-sense. 

To Cristian Rodriguez, marcio ferreira, Jonathan Arsenault and all other "onliners":

Maybe you have your needs addressed, because you just download net-install CD and run everything via the Internet, but some users need to have it all offline.

"Offliner" needs are currently poorly addressed, because 1 DVD lacks a lot of content, and for me - what's not on the official media DVD is non-existent and hard-to-get, and as our distro grows larger and larger naturally, sticking with 1 DVD will cover less and less functionality. Even today, large chunks of the distro cannot fit on the 1 DVD, not to mention in the future, where KDE 4 will appear, as well as many other packages in 3D desktop and virtualization areas. There is simply no space on 1 DVD to fit all those.

As for bandwidth: we should remove all the AMD64 CDs, as all 64-bit systems have DVDs and not CDs anyway; So we can remove the 6 CDs, and the second DVD will take their place.

Again: there are some users, who are happy with the "online way" of their distros, such as ArchLinux, Ubuntu or whatever, but until now openSUSE have addressed both "offline" and "online" needs more-or-less. I prefer to see "offline" needs to be addressed by openSUSE.

-Alexey "Technologov"

(In reply to comment #21)

> "Offliner" needs are currently poorly addressed,

Because there are more important things to do, and the current way works for most users.


> As for bandwidth: we should remove all the AMD64 CDs, as all 64-bit systems
> have DVDs and not CDs anyway; So we can remove the 6 CDs, and the second DVD
> will take their place.

haha.. funny now you are trying to replace something that can be useful, for something useless.

> Again: there are some users, 

Some ? most you mean right ?

>I prefer to see
> "offline" needs to be addressed by openSUSE.

So, you want to people to spend their time in a thing that a minority will benefit, will require more bandwith, will annoy mirror admins..

Thre is nothing to address as the current way works and works fine, if you have an usecase, does not mean the entire world should follow you.

(In reply to comment #17)
> No, it's not enough.

Here I disagree with the OP. In my comment #10 I said the second DVD "could be offered for download", but the other replies to comment #17 (though some were very bitchy) made the point clear that this would cost a lot of bandwidth and be redundant with the existing online sources. If Alexey has enough bandwidth to download a 2nd DVD, he could do as Boyd does (comment #14) and create his own.

So I change my vote for the modified proposal by Nikolay (comment #12), which was taken up by Michael for evaluation. As I see, all negative comments here take issue with a downloadable DVD, but only one commenter seems to have issue with an additional retail DVD (Jonathan #18), but his comment brings back the non-issue of "quantity over quality" (nobody is advocating that here), showing he is still missing the point.

In summary:
(In reply to comment #15)
> We'll evaluate to add the full ftp tree on a separate DVD for the retail
> product. 

Yes, Michael, that would be really valuable, even if it means the box will cost $5 or $10 more.

I don't support second DVD for download. 
It is plain waste of space and bandwidth. 

Actually I would vote for retail offer that is measured to 3 type of consumers: 
1) Retail as it is now, for new users. 
2) Retail/online order, 1 DVD or 1 CD with compressed image like some Live CDs for experienced users with broadband.
3) Retail/online order, 1 extra DVD that has FTP snapshot of missing packages on single DVD for dialup customers. 

This way everybody would be happy.

openSUSE 10.3 Alpha 4 has 6 CDs+ 1 non-OSS+1 Lang CD. This means that as our distro naturally grows we will need more media.

Adding a second DVD now will ensure this expansion in the future.

openSUSE 10.2 survey showed that more than 90% of our users have broadband. So we definitely address the waste mayority. 0.6% said, they don't have Internet connection. Sorry, but it's not worth to address this minor issue. And we (I spoke to Sales and support) don't see the need to offer it in the retail box. Maybe we offer it via torrent. 

(In reply to comment #26)
> Sorry, but it's not worth to address this minor issue.

Exactly, there are a lot of more important stuff to fix, this a good example of a minor issue that will cause way too much hassle.

> Maybe we offer it via torrent. 

even offering via bittorrent makes very litle sense, but at least it will waste less resources that way ;-) 

Now that it was said and proved that this so called big problem only affects a small fraction of the users, I want to know WHAT you so called "affected people" are going to do about it.

This idea is so sensible as me asking suse to be optimized for AVR microncontroller arch because I want to use opensuse in microcontroller and because me (0.0001% of the "community" wants it), then I have to force everybody to swallow it.

It was so easy to open a bug and start giving novell people orders "do this, do that, print a dvd with this and that", but now that you need to take some action to make it happen, for example, using kiwi, like I suggested. But you wont make it right? Not anybody who wanted it in this thread, not anybody in the mailing lists. You said it was an essential service, like an hospital, but I can bet that none of you will move slightly your asses to make it happen.

Do you know why? Because its not essential, its just a good excuse to give people orders and tasks, and waste their time with your small problem. Because you people cannot deal with your problems. In this process you not very well educated people IGNORE the problem you care causing to the vast majority of the users. This is a silly selfish and sad attitude, that you (this is special for you alexey, READ THIS) dont seem to give a damn about anybody but yourself. Think about that, you bunch of SELFISH CLUELESS PEOPLE.

Thanks for your attention

(In reply to comment #26)
> Maybe we offer it via torrent. 

Thank you, Michael, for taking it under consideration.
A torrent is better than nothing, since it can be downloaded over time also with an intermittent network connection. Whereas the alternative (full FTP-tree download, as suggested by Boyd in comment #14) would require a fast and stable connection, such as at the university.

Finally, can pointless comments, such as comment #28, be deleted? I think this enhancement was a valid suggestion that was properly dealt with and resolved (even though we proposers didn't get our wish) and the rich discussion will help others that have a similar idea. But having to read 4 paragraphs of nonsense at the end tarnishes the whole process.  

I also agree with the suggestion and the well-reasoned arguments of the OP. I have broadband too, but want everything on DVD right in my hand because

1) Installing from DVD is 10-100 times faster than installing from online mirror. In my case, I live on a large island which has no suse mirrors, sea cable links are both expensive and do not compare in speed with LANs or DVDs.

2) I install several machines, and fail to understand the reasons for WAN installs being so popular. Third Millennium or not, downloading the same stuff twice (3 times, 5 times?) is barely intelligent or user-friendly. Debian I believe has a mechanism to automatically create a repo from the downloaded packages and/or use that as transparent proxy/cache for the next install, but the only mechanism suse has is deleting the downloaded packages immediately after download, which doesn't stack up to Debian let alone "most advanced user-friendly distro" (or whatever it was).

3) Creating my own mirror and downloading 10GB of stuff before I can start installing my first suse system is not the solution I am looking for. (People in this country have monthly traffic limits on broadband. Sea cables are expensive.) My own mirror is not in my pocket when I go to the next place to install a suse system. Burning the mirror to DVDs (plural) is possible in theory but not going to happen in practice (doesn't fit, re-arranging is past the limit of the KISS principle). Portable disk gimmicks are either expensive or too slow.

4) I have been in the situation where the only sensible work to be done is to install another system, and the Internet is down. Let's have a 4 hour coffee then, to keep the boss happy ;)  What I have in my pocket is always safely available.

5) Adding the Internet OSS repo takes about a quarter of the installation time alone, as net result I usually don't bother. Not exactly good advertising.

There is a use in having the whole ftp tree available on DVD. Whether this is a second DVD in the box or another ISO image for download by whatever download means are feasible doesn't make a big difference to me. Copying both DVD into a local ftp server with an SLP setup would be really nifty(TM) for LAN installations of more than 1 machine.

From what I heard in Novell Open Audio, my pre-ordered box is coming with 2 DVDs including all the FTP tree in the second DVD. 
Thanks a lot for listening, guys!

Yeah, let's change it to fixed.