Bug 279959

Hm... wouldn't you rather enter it into fate? ;-)

I'd say it is too trivial for fate.

Created attachment 144461 [details]
screenshot with tabs

Well, here is my tab attempt. But it takes cuts some space from the table comparing to the original one, because of that "Filter: Custom" label which used to be in the same line as radio buttons.

I'm not very satisfied with the look, however I can't think of something better now.

Martin, do you have some plans for yast2-users "ux/usability" review?

Hi Jiri,

Mhm. Currently we don't have any plans for yast2-user, but nonetheless I would like to spend some time on this :-)

Based on your mock-up I created another one.
It's main differences are in the arrangement of the filter mechanism and the LDAP options.

* Filter
I replaced the text line "Filter: Custom" with the "Set Filter" combo box.
In combination with the word "show" or "filter" it is now clear which items are displayed.
I didn't find any other YaST module where we use filters so I picked this wording and presentation of filters. But as I just took a quick look through the modules it is also possible that I overlooked something. If you know of any other module that also uses filters, please let me know, so we can make it consistent.

In openSUSE 10.2 we also use filter possibilities like "custom" and "customize filter"
What is the "custom" filter for? Does he show all users?
Is a filter customization really necessary? In openSUSE 10.2 a customization means a combination of various existing entries. Honestly, I didn't get the meaning of it and whether it is necessary at all.


* LDAP Options
Why is it necessary to make LDAP options so prominent? 
Isn't it sufficient to keep it where it is now (openSUSE 10.2), in the authentication and user sources.

Have a nice week-end,

Martin

Created attachment 145016 [details]
some other suggestions of user and group management

Martin,
thanks for suggestions.

> * Filter
- yes, we have already  talked about merging the status line with the button for changing the actual filter. Yes, customization if for combination of some user/group sets. You may be right that it is not necessary, I'm actually not using it. AFAIR it came from some specific request, that time was "in" combination of local and NIS users.

> * LDAP Options

The problem is that these LDAP options (mainly setting the LDAP filter of what kind of LDAP users/groups should) are not accessible from other part (authentication and user sources).

Stano's suggestion was also to move some items from the Expert Options menu to separate tabs - esp. "Authentication and user sources" (but the name would need to be shorter) and Defaults for new users.

Stefan, look at the suggestion from Martin (comment #6). Do we already have the possibility for a ComboBox without the text above it? I fear that even if I set the empty label, the space would be reserved, but I'm not sure if it wasn't already requested and is not finally fixed...

(In reply to comment #8)
> Stefan, look at the suggestion from Martin (comment #6). Do we already have 
> the possibility for a ComboBox without the text above it? 

Yes. From YQComboBox.cc:

    if ( _qt_label->text().isEmpty() )
	_qt_label->hide();

i.e., if the label is empty, the corresponding QLabel widget will not be shown and thus not require any screen space.


BUT... (you had that coming, didn't you? ;-)   )
that also means that there will be no keyboard shortcut for that combo box. The label you put on its left side is not in any way connected with the combo box, so it cannot act as the keyboard shortcut proxy (its "buddy" in Qt lingo).

That is a limitation. It might be a small one, but some users very likely will complain about it.

Created attachment 145895 [details]
screenshot

So, it could look like this - 2 more tabs with the expert dialogs, while Expert Options has the rest.

However, I'm not sure about that missing shortcuts for changing the filter, I am very used to them

Hi Jiri!

Sorry, I lost a little bit track of this bug :-(

Your last mock up (#10) looks definitely much easier to understand than the existing one in 10.2 :-)

I think, that Stano`s idea is very good, because it helps to move things from this menu (combo) box. 

I would like to drive this a little further:

Do the remaining expert options (login settings and password encryption) affect all users or are they set for one specific user (or group)?

If they affect all users, what about this:
We can change the name of the "Defaults for New Users" tab into "General Settings", where the user can set defaults for new users, password encryption and login settings.

"Write changes now":
Do we still need it? I remember something about YaST modules saving changes instantly in the future.
In any case: I think, it is the only possibility in YaST where the user can save changes without closing the module.


If you like to, I can provide some mock ups for these ideas.

> If they affect all users, what about this:
> We can change the name of the "Defaults for New Users" tab into "General
> Settings", where the user can set defaults for new users, password encryption
> and login settings.

Yes, that could be possible, but I'm not sure if there won't be too many widgets in such "General Settings" dialog. And, such "General Settings" dialog (=tab), doesn't offer much information about what can be done there - logically, since all these things grouped don't match together, while with the current setup, you know where to click when you want to change e.g. the defaults.


> "Write changes now":
> Do we still need it? I remember something about YaST modules saving changes
> instantly in the future.

Yes, we talked about such future about 2 or 3 years ago, and since that time yast2-users offers this possibility :-)

> In any case: I think, it is the only possibility in YaST where the user can
> save changes without closing the module.

Yes, probably. Frankly, I do not know if it is needed.


The reason why I haven't done anything on this bug is mainly that Filter Combobox (shown with "Local Users" at the screenshot). I very dislike the idea of lacking the shortcut to that widget and I do not know if the advantages of the tabs justify such disadvantage.

sry I'm not an expert and I don't want to grouch, but...
isn't the difference between USERS and GROUPS not the most important fact within this dialog and all other dialog elements are in the ranking below?

Just an idea

If expert options are combined with user settings

  +---------–+/--------+
  I Users    I Groups  I
  I          +-----------------------------------+
  I Filter: (Local Users .V)                     I
  I +------------------------------------------+ I 
  I I Table                                    I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I +------------------------------------------+ I
  I (ADD) (EDIT) (DELETE)    (DEF. F. NEW USERS) I
  I                                              I
  I       (Expert Options) (APPLY CHANGES)       I 
  +----------------------------------------------+   
                  I                                   
                  I  Exp. Options = Button                                  
                  I
                  V
               New Dialog with Cancel/OK and 
               tab widget
               - Authentication Settings
               - Password Encr.
               - Login Settings



If expert options are more general


  +---------–+/--------+
  I Users    I Groups  I
  I          +-----------------------------------+
  I Filter: (Local Users .V)                     I
  I +------------------------------------------+ I 
  I I Table                                    I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I I                                          I I
  I +------------------------------------------+ I
  I (ADD) (EDIT) (DELETE)    (DEF. F. NEW USERS) I
  +----------------------------------------------+
                                              
         (Expert Options) (APPLY CHANGES NOW) 
                            

You are right that Users and Groups tabs are somehow a different types of dialogs than the other tabs, but actually I don't think it hurts too much - it may be still quite easy to understand.

The idea of grouping some other settings into another dialog with tabs is interesting, but I'm not sure about "launching" such a dialog - in previous attempts we tried to reduce the 2 lines of buttons under the table to one...

Yes, I agree with Jiri.
The biggest benefit from using these two additional tabs is that experienced users find their options faster and easier that when they are hidden in an non-self-explaining button called "expert settings".

I made a mock up where I merged the login settings, password encryption and default settings into one tab.
BTW: I was surprised how clear it looked :-)

I agree with you, that we should avoid an unclear labeling like "Expert Options" or "General Settings" wherever it is possible.
What about "Default Settings"? 

As discussed above, I skipped the "Write Changes Now" option.

> The reason why I haven't done anything on this bug is mainly that Filter
> Combobox (shown with "Local Users" at the screenshot). I very dislike the idea
> of lacking the shortcut to that widget and I do not know if the advantages of
> the tabs justify such disadvantage.

Thanks for telling the reason :-)
I think, your argument is valid and I fear, that I simply forgot to add shortcuts to the filter.
Sorry for that and let`s use them with short cuts.

Created attachment 153640 [details]
default settings for user/group administration module

Uhm, do you really think it looks better? I think there's too many widgets in that dialog :-(

> I think, your argument is valid and I fear, that I simply forgot to add
> shortcuts to the filter.
> Sorry for that and let`s use them with short cuts.

The problem is not that you didn't include it in the mockup, but that it is not technically possible to have a combobox with the label on the left side  (instead of above) with the shortcut, see comment 9

We will discuss the mockup in the ux team on Wednesday.
Hopefully I will come up with some other ideas by then :-)

As I wasn`t sure about a couple of things, we had a little team discussion about that topic today.

* tabs
Tabs are usually used to symbolize that things are equally important or independent from each other.
But in our case "user authentication" and "default user settings" are something that semantically belong to the user tab. 
So, I would not advise to extract them from there.

* filter box
Why don`t we just put the label with the short cut above the combo box?
(I am still not sure, if I understood you correctly, maybe we should just have a little phone call next Wednesday?)

Basically, I would suggest to stick with the mock up proposed in comment #6.
It shows at a first glance the two most important tasks the user can accomplish: 
users and groups.
login settings, password encryption, authentication settings and defaults for new users would be hidden in an expert button within the user settings tab.
This would make semantically sense and wouldn`t hurt the user too much as he doesn`t change these settings as frequently as user and group settings.

As mentioned:
If you like to we can discuss this issue next week via phone because it might be  sometimes quicker and less frustrating :-)

Stano:
Why would it make sense to you to put "authentication settings" and "default user settings" into extra tabs?

> Why don`t we just put the label with the short cut above the combo box?

It's possible, of course. But it takes more space which I wanted to avoid.

I know :-(
But I don`t see another way how to keep the short cut functionality, which of course is also nice to have from a usability perspective (having multiple ways of achieving a goal between which the user can select).

Do you need any additional comments or suggestions on this topic?

I'm not sure. Anyway, it is too late to change this dialog's appearance for 10.3, so we have a time to think about it for next release. I may do some prototype version after 10.3 is out.

Thanks for your help!

Please note that due to some personal appointments I will not be in the office until 5th November.

For questions and comments on usability please contact Eva (evamaria.fuchs@novell.com) or Sigi (siegfried.olschner@novell.com).

Hello everyone!

OK. New year, new ideas.
I gave the whole thing a re-thought and I owe Sigi an apology.
He was right, that "User" and "Groups" are the most important things.
"Defaults for New Users" and "Authentication Settings" are on another hierarchical level than adding new users/groups. So it doesn't make sense to put them into tabs, because tabs symbolize things which are unrelated or on an equal hierachical level.

So, what about the suggestion I attached?

It contains the filter short-cut and allows an easy overview of the module's contents.

Enjoy,

Martin

 

Ah, maybe I should add:
The content of the filter combo box and the expert options are the same as they are in the current module.

Created attachment 190077 [details]
rethinking about user/group management module

A disadvantage of my suggestion in Comment #27 is, that the user doesn't see the selected filter.
So I created another suggestion :-)
The label above the combo box allows the use of a short cut.
Although it takes one additional line the displayed items in the table remain the same because the "Expert Options" moved to the place where the "Set Filter" menu box was. 

Created attachment 190238 [details]
Combo box instead of menu box

ping?

Sorry, I was ill.

Thanks for the suggestions.
IMHO, the extra white space above the table (in comment 29) looks ugly. Maybe we could use the dialog proposed in comment 27, with the information about current filter on the left side:

[Filter: Custom]                                   [&Set Filter v]
------------------------ table -----------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
[Add] [Edit] [Delete]                           [E&xpert Options v]


And BTW (re comment 25), I actually think some (or all?) expert options _could_ go to another tabs, despite their difference to the User/Group tabs. 

(In reply to comment #31 from Jiří­ Suchomel)

> [Filter: Custom]                                   [&Set Filter v]

Of course, there is no button on the left, just the label, as with current situation where is it on the right side. So I should write it this way:

Filter: Custom                                     [&Set Filter v]

Good to hear, that you are well again!

I very much like your idea about how to solve the filter issue.
We should do it as your proposed in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=279959#c32.

Concerning the "move expert settings to tabs" option:
I would suggest to move either all expert settings to tabs and to get rid of the expert options in the user and groups overview. 

What about something similar as you suggested in https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=145895:
naming one tab "Defaults for Users" and another one "Authentication Settings"
And include "password encryption" and "login settings" into "Defaults for Users"?
Maybe not the way I did in https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=153640
I have to admit it was rather a tryout than a serious suggestion :-)
Maybe we can use push buttons or something?

Created attachment 191437 [details]
screenshot

This is the variant I currently like most:
- I believe the filter issue should be solved by this proposal
- There are tabs instead of radio buttons, like original proposal requested
- Some Expert options are also moved to the tabs, those are the options requiring whole dialog for configuration, but not all of them. I know, here could still be a space for disagreement, however I really think that removing Expert Options button at all is not necessary and I don't see reliable way how to put "password encryption" and "login settings" into "Defaults for Users" (the resulting dialog would be very crowded, I'm not sure if it could be way better than your proposal https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=153640). Not even mentioning "Write Changes Now" option, which really doesn't fit in any tab.

- The remaining issue is where to put speicalized "LDAP options" (see them for example here https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=144461). I think the button could either be besides the Expert Options dialog, or (maybe better) the items from LDAP options menu could be moved to (now) reduced Export Options menu.

OK.
Leaving "password encryption" and "login settings" in the expert options makes sense to me as it is different from "default settings for new users" because the user changes also settings of existing users with these options.
And with the "Write Changes Now" we would also need any button in the right bottom corner.
I also agree with you to move "LDAP options" into the "Expert Options".
We should really avoid having three lines with buttons in a module.

Thanks for cooperation. Finally, I'm going to implement this.

You are welcome! Thanks for your patience and your comments!

Cu,

Martin

Huh, done, finally. It's yast2-users-2.16.6, look for next alpha.