Bug 560713

This was intended for 11.2 as original requirement was to remove yast2 keyboard module at all.

I don't know what the correct status should be.

In case we really want this.

We need to make sure that the user knows that this only changes the Linux console keyboard layout and results in a *simple* X keyboard mapping for the system wide X keyboard layout. 

It does *not* change the keyboard layout for the user's session. Not immediately, not for the following sessions. 

At least in gdm you might still have a different keyboard layout, if the keyboard switcher in gdm has been used before - remembering the last setting.

If we can't make this clear, (re)introducing this dialog would be more harm
than benefit, since it would create a lot of confusion.

I think this is for 11.3, now it is confusing enough for updating 11.2

Jiri, what do you think of 11.3 solution?

the problem exists on 11.2 right now and needs to be fixed there. Who knows how things are going to work on 11.3. GDM allowing to select a keyboard is not a new feature in 11.2, it's been there before. Also GDM associates the changed keyboard with the user who selected it, ie it's not a global setting any user inherits.

I'm quite indifferent about this. First, Stefan requested to remove it, so I removed it. If there are good reasons to include current module in Control center, I can add it back.

(In reply to comment #4)
> GDM allowing to select a keyboard is not a new feature in 11.2, it's been 
> there  before. 

No longer using sax2 for keyboard configuration is not related to the features 
of gdm or any other DM at all.

> Also GDM associates the changed keyboard with the user who selected it, ie 
> it's not a global setting any user inherits.

That's even better, so every user can configure his own keyboard setting already in the displaymanager!

(In reply to comment #5)
> I'm quite indifferent about this. First, Stefan requested to remove it, so I
> removed it. 

Well, I requested to remove the keyboard module, which runs sax2 for X keyboard configuration, since this no longer can work. Now we're talking about the Linux console keyboard configuration.

> If there are good reasons to include current module in Control center, I can 
> add it back.

I'm not sure whether this is a good idea. See my comment #2.

(In reply to comment #6)
> (In reply to comment #4)
> > GDM allowing to select a keyboard is not a new feature in 11.2, it's been 
> > there  before. 
> 
> No longer using sax2 for keyboard configuration is not related to the features 
> of gdm or any other DM at all.

Exactly. You brought this up in comment #2 claiming it would cause
confusion. Now the confusing thing is that we offer no way at all to
set the console keyboard layout nor the default X keyboard layout.

> > Also GDM associates the changed keyboard with the user who selected it, ie 
> > it's not a global setting any user inherits.
> 
> That's even better, so every user can configure his own keyboard setting
> already in the displaymanager!

Yeah great. It's quite common that a system has five different
keyboards attached and each user needs a different layout. NOT!

(In reply to comment #8)
> Now the confusing thing is that we offer no way at all to set the console 
> keyboard layout nor the default X keyboard layout.

At least the latter is easy to configure in our standard desktops. How relevant is the Linux console keyboard layout for the average user, so it would justify
to confuse each and every user?

> > That's even better, so every user can configure his own keyboard setting
> > already in the displaymanager!
> 
> Yeah great. It's quite common that a system has five different
> keyboards attached and each user needs a different layout. NOT!

Well, I believe it makes sense to have it implemented that way. Still Linux is
a multiuser system. One use case are universities with students from different
countries.

(In reply to comment #10)
> (In reply to comment #8)
> > > That's even better, so every user can configure his own keyboard setting
> > > already in the displaymanager!
> > 
> > Yeah great. It's quite common that a system has five different
> > keyboards attached and each user needs a different layout. NOT!
> 
> Well, I believe it makes sense to have it implemented that way. Still Linux is
> a multiuser system. One use case are universities with students from different
> countries.

Yes, and that scenario is supported well by the gdm feature and the
desktop applets. That still doesn't mean that we need to remove all
means to configure a system wide default.

I've tried this: if running 'yast keyboard' (console version) in an X
session any changes made don't affect the current setting, the test line
still shows the wrong settings. When doing the same on the text console,
everything works OK.
When using the 'YaST2 keyboard' version (GUI) the new layout is also set in 
X and the test line shows the correct results. This however affects the rest 
of the X session also and I'm not sure if this is what we want if a keyboard application is running on the desktop.

We could:
a. test if we are running on a text console and if not disable the keyboard  test line.
   This would disable this line always when running in GUI mode.
   Replace the message by a 
b. rename the module to console-keyboard.

If a. is considered to be too confusing the sax2 specific stuff could be replaced (should be fairly easy). The keyboard module could store the previous X keyboard setting and restore it when loosing input focus and on exit.

I have no shares in this. If you need more input, please ask opensuse-factory presenting pros and cons

sigh. I do not think this makes sense to change for 11.2. Stefan, what is the solution for 11.3? Should current functionality remain?

My opinion is that we don't need to offer a tool to configure a system wide default for the X keyboard layout. Just use the keyboard setting from installation. The same applies to the Linux console keyboard.

Anyway, I don't believe we're going to find an agreement here. So openSUSE project management needs to decide something here.

Since SaX2 is no longer been developed (see huge email thread on opensuse-factory ML; no single person from our communitiy appears to be interested into further development of this tool) I would appreciate if if the proposal is *not* based on SaX2.

Ludwing, do you miss system wide X11 keyboard configuration or console keyboard configuration?

Of course he does. Otherwise he wouldn't have opened this bugreport.

I mean, which part (there are 2 in comment 17) is more important.

What's the point of the question? Since the module writes /etc/sysconfig/keyboard and the xdm init script hack reads that file the module also sets the X default keyboard *without help of sax2*. I really fail to understand the arguing in this bug. The code is there, works and is not going away since it's needed during install anyways. I'm not asking you to add or remove code, all that's missing is a lousy desktop file for the existing module. That doesn't hurt or prevent anyone from using fancy desktop tools for keyboard changes in their X session.

This "lousy" desktop file is going to trigger a lot of confusion. See my comment 
#2. Also users are going to complain that there were a lot more options to specify with the old keyboard module (which was using SaX2 for the X keyboard configuration, but users don't know this).

Well, I don't buy this confusion argument. The yast2 keyboard module
obviously is for the basic settings, it doesn't even try to be more
than that. Anyone who needs more sophisticated stuff, dynamic layout
switching etc will inevitability have to look elsewhere.

I'm giving up.

Would this be possible to issue as 11.2 update? By "this", we mean  re-adding a desktop file that enables 'yast2 keyboard' in YaST control center.

Hmm, it seems that it is a topic to argue ;-)

My opinion here is: we ship the code behind, then we also should enable it in yast2.

for an update here: +1

(In reply to comment #22)
> Well, I don't buy this confusion argument. The yast2 keyboard module
> obviously is for the basic settings, it doesn't even try to be more
> than that. 

Apparently you no longer remember the SaX2 keyboard module.

> Anyone who needs more sophisticated stuff, dynamic layout
> switching etc will inevitability have to look elsewhere.

You could do this with the SaX2 keyboard module. People are going to ask for
this, if we offer again a YaST keyboard module.

Against an update here: -1 ;-)

(In reply to comment #26)
> Against an update here: -1 ;-)

Not your decision :-P (otherwise you have to join the maintenance team *G*)  ... other opinions from MAINTENANCE team?


It is hard to find a solution here ;-)

Sorry, didn't know you are from maintenance team.

> Sorry, didn't know you are from maintenance team.

I didn't mean it seriously ;-)


Your opinion is important for us. To reintroduce it is not really important for me. From technical view: - ; for user view: + ;-)


> You could do this with the SaX2 keyboard module. People are going to ask for
> this, if we offer again a YaST keyboard module.

ok, convinced: -1

I found another Pro (by lnussel)

"There are requests to support non-ASCII passwords for encrypted
partitions. For that purpose the text console setting is crucial esp
for the root partition as I doubt anyone wants to start X in the
initrd. So no matter what convenience functions the DM offers we
still need that yast module."

Personally I would reject such a request, but since we're used to do everything
what customers are requesting no matter stupid or wrong the idea is ... :-(

We need a solution here! ;-)


update or no update?


Do we have a proper solution for 11.3?

(In reply to comment #31)
> We need a solution here! ;-)
> 
> update or no update?

As I suggested before the maintenance team need to decide this.
 
> Do we have a proper solution for 11.3?

No.

I think we should block the update for now, especially since there is no solution for 11.3. If we get any dupes/votes for this bug, then we should re-consider.

-1 to update

ok, no update here at the moment. Please re-set a NEEDINFO to maintenance team if you have got a proper solution. ;-)

I think it would be nice to add a comment to the release notes, manual,... (deprecated but can be used by "yast2 keyboard" or something like that) ;-)

This means wontfix for 11.2. Christian, Ludwig please discuss what do you want  11.3 and than tell me the result

hmm, I'm not the right contact person for 11.3. Stefan is the better one here. Otherwise we can start a discussion on the Factory mailing list, how to handle it in the future and collect ideas...

I for one would put the keyboard module back in and name it System Keyboard or something.

(In reply to comment #37)
> I for one would put the keyboard module back in and name it System Keyboard or
> something.

Coolo, please read my comment #2. "Linux console keyboard/simplified system keyboard" would be appropriate, but I'm sure it won't be accepted by the usability "team".

For good reasons, because it's silly. "System Keyboard" is not.

"System Keyboard" is misleading. It will result in a lot of confusion - mentioned several times before. But in the end, it won't be my decision.

OK, I propose this change in YaST keyboard module for 11.3:

- add the removed desktop file back, label it "System Keyboard Layout" instead of the old "Keyboard Layout".

- adapt the help text. Currently, this is shown _during installation_:

Keyboard Configuration
Choose the Keyboard Layout to use for installation and in the installed system. Test the layout in Test. For advanced options, such as repeat rate and delay, select Expert Settings. 
If unsure, use the default values already selected. 

- my proposal is to have slightly modified help text for the installed system, like:

Keyboard Configuration
Choose the Keyboard Layout to use in the system. Test the layout in Test. For advanced options, such as repeat rate and delay, select Expert Settings.
Find more options as well as more layouts in the keyboard layout tool of your desktop environment.

Stephan?

(In reply to comment #41)
> - my proposal is to have slightly modified help text for the installed system,
> like:
> 
> Keyboard Configuration
> [...] Test the layout in Test. [...]

Maybe remove this line completely? See Egbert's comment #13 why.

(In reply to comment #43)
> > Keyboard Configuration
> > [...] Test the layout in Test. [...]
> 
> Maybe remove this line completely? See Egbert's comment #13 why.

s/line/sentence/

*** Bug 544217 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Help text adapted (without Test line), desktop file returned, see comment 41. New package is yast2-country-2.19.4, submitted to Factory.